[Rod]

As pointed out earlier its getting more and more expensive to but the lastest and the greatest metal detectors. If money is no object to you then you have no worries about it. I can only speak for myself, I can at this point in time afford the newest but do I really want to or should I invest into it?

We have to be good stewards over what we have.
Given the price of the newest that technology has to offer depending on model you can pay from $600.00 on the low end of gold machines to a high of $5,000.00.

When we start talking about our monetary investments and the dollars start to add up we think about what other things you could buy with the same amount of money and the fact that the dealers of these other comparable products keep insured units on hand for consumer testing as sawmill stated and as Inhere pointed out this is common business practice in Australia for metal detectors. Plus Jade pointed out the fact hat credit card companies would love a piece of this pie if the dealer could not afford to have this kind of setup. And as FrankC stated by the time all is said and done with extra goodies there is even more expense.

For instance the newest Minelab model, the GPX 4500 cost more than some new quads reference the 2008 Big Bear 250 from Yamaha and as much as others 2008 Grizzly 350 Auto. 4x4

As we all know you could buy a used 4x4 truck for the same money and a lower end metal detector also. Or a variety of equipment. For the same 5K you could get a SD2100 or Gold Bug 2 and a vaccumm and a drywasher and much more.

Its about value, you monetary loyalty is to yourself and your family, no one else.

Now I'm sure there are some dealers out there just fumming mad at this kind of talk and then there are those others who see this kind of an idea as a way to get ahead and attract a segment of the gold prospecting community's business that was before not sure of this type of purchase. Buy a test model or two insure them and get new business. Maybe even charge a daily fee to test it, win, win, win as Kagy stated.
Its not hard to insure anything, if you think it is just call your local insurance agent or learn from someone who rents equipment.

I speak from experience when it comes to gold prospecting equipment and Minelab Metal Detectors. I have purchased two new Minelab units, the GP Exteme and the GP3500 as well as several dredges, drywashers, Tesoro and Whites metal detectors, vacs and the list goes on.

Now on the other side of this we see new emerging metal detectors that are, regardless of if you want to see it this way or not competition to the gold detector market like the Gold Scan 5, the Whites TDI and the Pulse Devil Nemesis. I am really looking forward to performance reports on these units. I want the most bang for my buck and the best edge I can get for the money. Now those statements mean different things to different people.

From where I stand I would need to take the unit to several of my pounded patches to see if it works like is/will be claimed.

That is what sells these detectors, the supposed ability to get the gold the others missed.
I could hit 3 to 4 spots in a day I've cleaned out with my Extreme and 3500 and then I'd know first hand from my test drive if the new model was as great as claimed.

Now the dealer could sound like a gym membership salesman at this point and say "Hey do you really think you'll be in shape in 2 weeks?" which would equate to "Do you really think a day's test is enough time to know?". My position on this is yes I do think a days testing in several areas is enough time, a metal detector is far from rocket science and it comes with a manual and I can read plus I have years of Minelab use under my belt. And if the dealer looks long and hard at it even if I did not buy it after the day I still had the option of coming back and renting the insured unit again for another day. Win - Win.

Like I stated earlier, It will be interesting to see if any dealers have the business acumen needed to listen to the consumers and bring their services to the next level. It another market waiting to be tapped. Sure it would take a little effort and planning but it may lead to huge returns as well.

You can do what you have always done and get the same reults, stay in the comfort zone, but the fruit is always out on a limb.

[Bob M]

There goes the

[Grubstake]

Rod, most dealer are working out of there house, or garage, and given the fact that most just do it for EXTRA income, like ROB does and Bill. There kind of in the same boat we are in, as dealers, they are requied to BUY so many of the new models that come out. So if they let you take a new detector out for a test DRIVE, Minelab should supply it at NO! cost to the dealer, and for a fee, for insurance and a proper ID and deposit, it could be done. But I don't think it should be put on the dealers back. Minelab yes! I know I won't even loan my detector out, I sooner let someone barrow my wife{NO I WOULDN'T}It all sounds like a great Ideal, but it would take Factory backing to do it. Rob and Bill do a great job of getting stuff and detectors everyone wants, but they only have so long for something to sit on the shelf, then its still out of pocket for them. Not right! But that how it is. Grubstake

[Rod]

You might be right Grubby, maybe Minelab should back it.

But the fact is this idea is up for grabs at this point, all a dealer has to do is reinvest some of his profits into this idea and run with it.

With the profit margin over $1,000.00 per new unit (from what I'm told) it would not take long to have 2 or 3 insured units.

Yes Bill and Rob both do great jobs, but this not about them, its about the consumers value for the dollar.

[Grubstake]

There may be that much profit, on each detector, but with the dealers kicking in extras on each new one, there profit margin goe's down. I think a guy should beable to make a living and a profit, on his time and packaging, and then the extra's eat up the rest, so maybe after its all said and done it might be $400.00 on each detector. Some items take along time to sell, so thats just money sitting, It would be cool if Minelab would supply demo detectors, free to each dealer. But I don't think it will ever happen. Grubstake

[Rod]

In a perfect world Minelab would do it.

Sure the extras eat up some money, but still $400.00 is a nice profit per unit, I'd say it is more close to $800.00 with extras as I've been told the markup on coils is well over 60%.

Still we're talking a $5,000.00 investment, that is a good chunk of change for the consumer. This is what it is all about, the consumer. Right now the scales are tipped too far in the dealers favor. Consumers need more options.

Sure a guy needs to make a living, but also a guy needs to know that his $5,000.00 goes for something worth the money.

Like I stated before:

From where I stand I would need to take the unit to several of my pounded patches to see if it works like is/will be claimed.
That is what sells these detectors, the supposed ability to get the gold the others missed.
I could hit 3 to 4 spots in a day I've cleaned out with my Extreme and 3500 and then I'd know first hand from my test drive if the new model was as great as claimed.

Plus the dealer would make $50.00 or so bucks for a 24 hour test drive, do that a few times a month and the insurance has paid for itself.

[Wirechief]

There may be that much profit, on each detector, but with the dealers kicking in extras on each new one, there profit margin goe's down. I think a guy should beable to make a living and a profit, on his time and packaging, and then the extra's eat up the rest, so maybe after its all said and done it might be $400.00 on each detector. Some items take along time to sell, so thats just money sitting, It would be cool if Minelab would supply demo detectors, free to each dealer. But I don't think it will ever happen. Grubstake

Hi Grubstake, I wanted to say from being a dealer I have to agree with you. Since all I have ever sold is the Minelab coin and relic machines the profit margin is smaller. I wish I were able to sell the big Minelab gold machines and then I would see a better profit on this end. That is probably why I will have to keep my fulltime job to make ends meet and the detector business will be part time. I have a tremendous amount of money tied up in demo models. I don't think it will ever happen that Minelab would pass out demo units to each dealer because my Independent Minelab Rep can't even get what he needs. I know I am not a true member of the electronic nugget hunting crowd but I feel this post pertains to me also nonetheless. Have a good one Grubstake and I hope you fill yer poke.

John Tomlinson,CET
John's Detectors

[Grubstake]

WireCheif, I know a few dealers, and almost all are doing it to supplement there income, And the ones I know, have a hard time just buying the detectors that the factory requires them to have on hand, that being said, I know there are some that do it as a sole means of income and can afford to stock 20 or 30 machines at a time. The only way I ca see demo machines being loaded out for a day for feild use would be provide by the factory. Only fare way todo it. They have the resorses to do that, dealers or most dealers do not, they are just trying to scrape by like us. The ideal is a good one, but would require much thought and insureance and a valid ID with away to check it, along with a sizeable deposit. I'm sure thats why no one rents high end minelabs, we have a place in Fresno, that rents detectors, but not high end detectors costing more than $1500.00. And the rental is pricie. like a $100.00 per day and a deposit that is high enough to cover the detector, but if you do buy a new one after the rental, your rent goe's toward the puchase. With ID theft so high and rampant, its hard to say, if it would be worth it, I'm sure insureance on the demo's or rentals would be high. So until the factory's get involved. I just can't see it working. The best option would be going out with someone that has that detector and taking them to your beat todeath patch and see if they could find anything you missed. But then again! Do you trust them? to go to one of your patchs? catch 22. Grubstake

[Rod]

Good to see your in here too WireCheif

This is not an anti dealer topic but rather a pro consumer topic.

Rather than obstacles in this I see opportunity for the delaers.

[Wirechief]

Hi Rod, no problem here and I see what your getting at. No offense taken and yes it is becoming a matter of economics. As long as gold maintains it's high value as it is now I suppose one can justify 5000.00 for the GPX4500 but isn't there a cutoff point? CU later Rod.

John Tomlinson,CET

[Rod]

Hi John,

There are those who argue with gold at $900 per ounce you should be able to pay the detector off quickly.
There are those that argue that and then suggest if you can't then you are not part of the cream of the crop - pure attempted manipulation - who cares - there is no cream of the crop - just those who try and those who don't in my book.

You can find a new spot with any decent gold machine.
How much gold will a pounded patch give up?
How much money will a pounded wallet give out?

The whole point of an upgrade is that the new model will find the gold the other units missed and remember it has to find enough of that gold, the gold the older unit missed to justify the cost. When you take it down to that real of a level and then weigh in the price the scenario changes.

And I'm not saying for a dealer to keep one of every model on hand, I am just suggesting at this point a demo model or two of the latest and greatest, insured units people can take out alone and judge for themselves if the new unit really gets the gold, if any the others missed.

[Arkyrick]

Just buy a used Gp or a 3000 and youll' do just fine is my thoughts and you'll have enough left to buy an old truck to take you out to the desert. I remember a dealer lending me a detector when I was in AZ that couldnt find nails then charging me 25$ bucks when I returned it HA! If he would have lent me or rented I guess, a good gold finding detector I would have bought it on the spot! Instead he gave me something that was useless then charged me for it. Also stiffed me for a battery that was obsolete and over priced I guess he saw me coming.

[Bob the Digger]

Rod reading the things you bring up of this nature usually I'm torn between pinning a medal on you or pissing in your cheerios.
Thanks for being a different voice.

[Adam]

What about coils ?

I hear about how the new Coiltek series work on a GPX4000, but no info on how they perform on a 2100 or any other model.
At this point in my life It would be much more likely that I would buy a new coil rather than a new machine.
I want to know how a coil performs on my machine (not someone elses).

[IMPDLN]

I just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.....I believe it all comes down to perspective. We Americans have a different perspective than say Japan or China when it comes to business and profit. If Minelab was a China company, they would gladly send dealers demos, free of charge with the expectation they would let others use them to help sales.
My best quick reference is automobile sales in this country. Walk into an American dealer and expect to pay 10% profit to dealer on any car or truck sold....bottom line no matter how good a deal you think you get......some might make 20% per sale. On the other hand, a Japanese dealer would sell for a $500 dollar profit per vehicle. The difference is volume. The American dealer is lucky to sell 30 cars a month, while the Japanese dealer could sell as many as 200. The American perspective on business is that we must make certain profit per sale, while Japanese will sell lower profit and higher volume and the result is usually more profit to the volume dealer. Those who have home business without overhead have the most control over their business destiny. We could sell for less profit and move more product, but our way of thinking says we need to make a certain profit margin to be successful. In my own opinion, it's too much about the money made, not enough about the service provided

[KAGY]

Very good post. This might be something the other new PI detector manufacturers would want to look at as well. There will be MANY people interested in how good these stack up. Sales may skyrocket if we can compare before buying. Can you dealers make suggestions to the factory reps without getting in hot water ?? Maybe let them take a look at the survey. I know my wallet only allows me to buy so many new mining toys and I like to dredge, highbank,detect, drywash,atv, jeep, and almost everything else that involves being out in mother nature. I have been pulling my wife's car out of the garage and up to the front door for over a year now. I don't want her looking in there..... oh, I mean I don't want her to have to walk ALL the way out there !! Ken Gardner

[Rod]

Good stuff everyone
Adam I agree, coils too. At $250+ per coil you need to get the right one for your unit and a test drive would benefit both consumers and dealers.

[Arkyrick]

I have noticed how ML dealers seem hesitant to loan out a ML, I never understood that other then the fear of it not coming back but if they did it like a tool rental show, ID and may be a credit card deposit. I would have probably bought a new ML at the time I first visited a ML dealer if he had done that, for sure if I would have found a nugget. When a newbe come's on the prospecting scene all ML gives them is their reputation, I would much rather test drive a Vet before I bought it. You stingey bunch of SOB's (ML)
ML has no compitition for one reason I beleve, It's too small of a market, just because we read and talk about detecting all the time it seeems like every one in the world is detecting, we are just a small part, a minority HEY! doe's that mean we can collect welfare?

[Wirechief]

I have to agree with you

[Wirechief]

I have to agree with you Rick, metal detecting has a very narrow field of interest and it is a hard sell. Ok I just wanted to comment and have a good one everybody!

John Tomlinson,CET

[Nuggethunting]

Hello Rod,

I think you should also put your full version of all your DVD's, Databases and other stuff out there for all of us to view publically. If we are interested in it after we view the entire version, I'm sure many would purchase it. This is a great chance for you to sell tons of your databases copies and other stuff.

Heck, you need a test drive before you actually purchase, right?

Rob Allison

[Rod]

I think you should also put your full version of all your DVD's, Databases and other stuff out there for all of us to view publically. If we are interested in it after we view the entire version, I'm sure many would purchase it. This is a great chance for you to sell tons of your databases copies and other stuff.

Heck, you need a test drive before you actually purchase, right?

A little spiteful are we Rob?

Most of my database have been public for years, don't know how you missed them, and none of them listed here are for sale - they are FREE to ANYONE and what the hell I'll even let YOU Rob test drive them for FREE

7,000 records for Arizona: http://arizonagoldprospectors.com/usgssear...earch/search.pl

Minloc.com is undergoing changes so I have it password protected at the moment but has been free since Oct. 2006 and will continue to be

And here are thousands of more records available to the public on this website.

For all these states go to this url to find their databases, http://arizonagoldprospectors.com/GoldPros...ingArticles.htm

Mining Records for Arizona
Mining Records for California
Mining Records for Alaska
Mining Records for Georgia
Mining Records for Nevada
Mining Records for New Mexico
Mining Records for Oregon

In regards to your question of DVD's I'm not producing any at the moment but might in the future. I would not have any problem allowing someone to download them for free for 24 hours. Its easy to code software to do that (time limit useage) and no if you change the time on the clock it will not be a work around

Same goes for the software I'm working on, full version free for download for 48 hours then it stops working. There is no way to get it working again, no clock tricks, no virtual instances, and trying to do so would be a criminal offense of reverse enginerring

Want to rent a DVD or software beyond the free trial period offered?
No problem its easy to code it for a custom time frame, like 4 day rental or whatever.

Seems you talk the talk real well Rob, now how well do you walk the walk?
Can your customers and potential customers try out your products for 48 hours for free or rent them?

[Nuggethunting]

Hello Rod,

Yes, you do have a huge database available to the public, but was talking more about your new CD's. Can we get a trial run on them?

If someone wants to come out with me and trial run any machine for free they are more than welcome. If they like what they see, they can purchase it and take it to their patches and gold locations by themselves. The best time is during the Winter months if possible.

Not spiteful, always loving.

Take care,

Rob Allison

[Rod]

Yes, you do have a huge database available to the public, but was talking more about your new CD's. Can we get a trial run on them?

Rob did you even what I said above?
The answer is YES when the product is finished and is ready for the public.
I just said this in the post above:

In regards to your question of DVD's I'm not producing any at the moment but might in the future. I would not have any problem allowing someone to download them for free for 24 hours. Its easy to code software to do that (time limit useage) and no if you change the time on the clock it will not be a work around

And I just said this in the post above:

Same goes for the software I'm working on, full version free for download for 48 hours then it stops working. There is no way to get it working again, no clock tricks, no virtual instances, and trying to do so would be a criminal offense of reverse enginerring

Want to rent a DVD or software beyond the free trial period offered?
No problem its easy to code it for a custom time frame, like 4 day rental or whatever.

And now going over your other position:

If someone wants to come out with me and trial run any machine for free they are more than welcome. If they like what they see, they can purchase it and take it to their patches and gold locations by themselves.

Like I said before:

From where I stand I would need to take the unit to several of my pounded patches to see if it works like is/will be claimed.
That is what sells these detectors, the supposed ability to get the gold the others missed.
I could hit 3 to 4 spots in a day I've cleaned out with my Extreme and 3500 and then I'd know first hand from my test drive if the new model was as great as claimed.

Going out with you with a new unit would not give me or anyone else the true test as stated above and I'm not taking you to any of my spots where I want to test.

Why not just rent them out?
Its very easy to insure or is already covered by your existing business insurance.
I just picked up a Blue Bowl from Travis the other day and he had several detectors out on rental, it was no huge leap for him or his insurance, we talked about it as a matter of fact.

always loving.

give us a big kiss

[jagdoctor1]

U 2 are so cute together LOL!

[AzNuggetBob]

You guys are kidding right, In my opinion test driving a new high end metal detector for a day or two would be pretty much pointless. The new machines are much more complicated than the earlier models. Most pro's don't learn to fully appreciate all the functions or capabilities of a new high end machine within a few days or weeks for that matter much less even understand all the new settings. I think it would be a joke to see a newbie pick up a 4500 Minelab without help from a pro that is experienced with that particular machine and test drive it for a day. AzNuggetBob

[Rod]

Bob the dealers have two customer bases, newbies and experienced users.
Detectors are not rocket science but I do think people have different learning curves.

I think it would be a joke to see a newbie pick up a 4500 Minelab without help from a pro that is experienced with that particular machine and test drive it for a day.

Guess what Bob, Minelab disagrees with you
According to Minelab in their own words at the url below, Minelab says even if you have never picked up a detector the new 4500 has automatic functions that will make you an expert in a matter of moments. That is quite a claim
http://www.minelab.com/consumer/page.php?s...PX-4500&x=y

In my opinion that borders on false advertising or Minelab is really onto something

Might as well just set up Minelab shops and get rid if the dealers, then people could just walk in plop down 5Gs, walk out, power up and WAH-LA they are experts

Leaving fantasy marketing world behind...

Let's look at the newbie, you are right the newbie might have some learning ahead of him so he would be better off with a used or less expensive model new model.
No use shelling out the same ammount of money he could go buy a new quad for on something he might not like.
This is where the rental part would be beneficial to both dealers and newbie customers.

Let's look at the experienced customers, I've got 2 GPs (Extreme and 3500) and have used them for years and have found a lot of gold with them and am sure I could read the instruction manual and be off and running with any new model. From my experience I've seen the Extreme outperform the 3500 and vice versa and a few times in some certain areas seen Ted's SD out do them both and all kinds of scenarios in between. The point being there is no one end all perfect detector.

Now I could sell some gold and come up with 5 grand or go to my bank and get it, no problem either way but is it really worth it to me?

It seems to me dealers almost fear tests drives or rentals to either new or experienced customers.

The point people miss when buying the latest and greatest is that the new unit has to find gold that gold the other older units (in this case the GPX4000 and older units) would have missed and enough of that missed gold to pay for the unit.

The gold that would have been missed by the other units is the only factor that pays for your new unit, not every nugget you find with it.

So if you take the new unit to your pounded patch that you thought you had cleaned out with your older unit and find a few dinks worth $50.00 then you are $50.00 into paying for the new unit.

If you go new spot hunting and hit a new patch with your new unit and score $700.00 in gold and $650.00 of that gold could have been obviously been found by your old unit then the amount of gold the new unit actually got for you is $50.00 because the other $650.00 could have been found by the older unit.

That is where the rubber meets the road on justifying a new unit purchase.

Hope this makes sense Bob, I'm like half asleep and need some more coffee

[AzNuggetBob]

Rod, I think all newbie's should get personal professional instruction. Sure factory presets are great to get you out there finding gold if you have not had time to read and or understand the manual but your not going to get the full capabilities of any new machine running presets. Being able to reset settings for different areas and soil conditions is were a machine will prove itself and I don't see how anyone could draw any conclusions about what any machine is capable of running in factory presets. According to what I've read on the 4500, The 4500 is quite a stretch from a 3500. Like you I also own a 3500 but I don't think the average person could pick up a 4500 manual and understand it completely in a day or two? Most people don't even understand what RX or timings are. Most people don't have a clue how a metal detector really works. Do the expert field testers use a new machine for one day or two and decide how good or bad a new machine is? and they are usually very experienced pro's. Taking one for a spin just for the fun of it is one thing but I don't think the average person should try to evaluate a new machine in a day or two. Personally I hate auto-tune (presets). I prefer manual and crank every setting to its acceptable maximum depending on ground conditions and that takes time to learn what works best and what doesn't on a particular machine. Anyway At $50.00 a day a dealer is going to have a lot of time and trouble invested just to break even on a high end rental. And if renting detectors is anything like cars that detector will probably be thrashed by the time its even payed for. And something I haven't noticed anyone mention, What about warranty or repairs on rentals? The whole idea sounds like a major headache to me and hardly worth the investment for a dealer. Take care AzNuggetBob

[Rod]

We've all got our opinions and I respect yours Bob even though I disagree with most of what you said.
You and I surely do agree on factory presets, I'm not a big fan of them either but at times they are the ticket, of course the trick is knowing when that time is from field experience.

I never had any instruction at all on either of my Minelabs and it sure was not rocket science to figure them out. Sure there are tricks you pick up over time with every unit and very little of that could be learned even in a day from a "professional" because not all only a small part of scenarios will present themselves in a day. Most learning is done through real field experience.

And right off the top of my head I could name over a dozen other successful nugget hunters who use detectors to find gold and never had any instruction other than a manual and field experience.

People should not confuse the word "professional" with the word "dealer". Most dealers have day jobs, that is what they are professionals at. The word "pro" or "professional" is for the most part a complimentary term, most of us have been called that at one time or another, it really does not amount to a hill of beans.

There are a few professional (making a living from detecting for gold) detectorist out there but in the US they are few and far between and most live very meagerly or are retired with retirement income when compared to the dealer making a side business out of it.

The average person does not need a 4500 to find gold, a SD used will do fine or a good vlf. Its been proven time and time again. And if these new units are so confusing a person could not even understand the manual in a day (which I seriously doubt) what is the motivation to buy such a high priced complicated piece of equipment?

The average experienced user can determine what the new unit can do in a day or two for the most part in my opinion. Its not rocket science, its a metal detector. You really don't need to know all of the technical details of how a metal detector works in order to successfully use one, that's like saying you need to know who a transmission works in order to drive a car, its not logical. You just need the basics and some time to experiment. Sure any help from a more experienced user would be great for a newbie and if they buy one from a dealer they should take advantage of any free offered outing for in person instruction with their new purchase. I can't see anyone going beyond that paying someone to teach them.

Besides with Minelab's new claim ( http://www.minelab.com/consumer/page.php?s...PX-4500&x=y ) anyone will be an expert in a matter of moments

As far as warranty repairs on new units for dealers I'm quite sure that would be covered by business insurance.
Travis seems to have no issues, he told me he was renting units out and his existing business insurance covers it.
Plus if the warranty does not specifically state that rental is a condition of termination of warranty then the issue is not applicable, its just another used unit in for repairs. I'm sure there is no contractual number of units the dealer can have on had in regards to limitations that are registered to them.
I'm guessing not many dealers have business insurance if this is such a huge stumbling block for them, my business insurance covers any or all equipment my business owns regardless.

[NEWBIE]

Rod, you should join this forum..
http://goldprospecting.invisionplus.net/in...rospecting&


You and Doug and Bugwhiskers would get along real good!!!

[Rod]

Already did join Newbie

I'm just offering a different pont of view, not bashing (not saying Doug and co. are bashing either) and I can't help what Minelab states on their website, how does that have anything to do with me?
Its their claim not mine, they printed it.

Personally I like all the dealers I've purchased from, I just think there is room for improvement in the industry and apparently from the results of this poll so far so do a lot of others - like over 90%

[Inhere]

"It seems to me dealers almost fear tests drives or rentals to either new or experienced customers."


I think you may be right there, Rod!
Down here, you can't hire one in NSW where I live, but down in Victoria or WA. I think that you can hire them. I know when I bought my Extreme down in Victoria, you could hire them from the same shop, at that time.

It does seem funny that the places you can hire them here, are the same places where they do their best work. Down in Victoria any half decent retired guy could have fun and pay for his 4500 in 6 months just picking up small bits.

Down there I know a couple of shops will also lend you any of their coils for a day. Coiltek in Maryborough have been doing this for ages. The guy who makes Nuggetfinders used to do the same thing at Wedderburn.

Seems funny that they can do it here, in a small market, and can't do it there!
BTW. most Minelab dealer's have small I room stores out here!

I think the new 4500 is a fantastic detector for most of our ground (In places like Victoria), I don't know about your ground!

The main advantage is being able to use mono's in really hot ground with lots of hot rocks, places where you could only use DD coil's in the past.

BTW. I agree with Bob, no one could work these things anywhere near their best in 1 day.