34 replies to this topic

[Jokenda]

It appears that we have experts on prospecting here in Ruston, Louisiana and I am getting very confused so I have decided to bring my questions to those that are actually Prospecting. I decided to start this thread so that I have all information in one place. It will also help me when these experts try to confuse me.

The first thing that is confusing me is the actual size of a claim. I have been shown in the mining law of 1872 that a claim is 20 acres.

1. If this is so, how can Advanced Geologic Exploration sale claims much larger?
2. Is it true that no 2 claims can touch sides and must only connect at the corners?

The person that is showing me this information is trying to convince me “Not” to purchase a claim. He wants me to find a place and start to work. If someone from the BLM comes up and tells me to move on, I should do so. Then I should return the next day and repeat this action until the BLM gives up and lets me stay.

I am not about to take this persons advice. It is obvious that he did, in fact, prospect in this manner. It would be my luck to get shot and disappear and I believe, I would deserve it.

Jokenda

[Grubstake]

A corparation can have many claims, one thing it depends on how many people are involved. each person can have 20 ac.s and there wife, brother-in-law, or who ever else is isinvolve, you can form an asociation with say 8 people and file continus claims. I did not know there was god in LA. or are they Gas, oil , Or what kind of mineral? Timber maybe? anyway, I would check and make sure, that it is BLM and the claims are legal before you dish out any money. Grubstake

[Jokenda]

A corparation can have many claims, one thing it depends on how many people are involved. each person can have 20 ac.s and there wife, brother-in-law, or who ever else is isinvolve, you can form an asociation with say 8 people and file continus claims. I did not know there was god in LA. or are they Gas, oil , Or what kind of mineral? Timber maybe? anyway, I would check and make sure, that it is BLM and the claims are legal before you dish out any money. Grubstake

Believe it or not, there is Gold in Louisiana. The town of Jena has several gravel and bedrock creeks that have small traces of gold. During the depression, many of the town's people panned to suppliment their life. It is not commercially economical but even today, people take their families out to spend the day panning for the uniqueness of it. There is also Gold in Arkansas, I believe it is in the Caddo Mountains commonly called "The Foothills of the Ozarks."

I plan to practice in Arkansas before I make the trip to Arizona but I am having a hard time to get information so I do not create a disturbance. I will probably work a few creeks on family land. This land is around the Caddo River, named so for the Caddo mountains.

Thanks for the information!

One more question at this time. Is Advanced Geoloic Exploration a repitable company?

Jokenda

[Grubstake]

That I have no Ideal about, do a googl search on them. check corparation records. You can never know too much if your going to invest money. Grubstake

[Jokenda]

Thank you, I will be checking them out. I have had my share of disappointments through the years. You know, I do like this group!

Jokenda

[sawmill]

Jokenda

The only thing your expert is right about,
is to be very ,very careful about buying claims.

His BLM advice totally sucks. If the BLM tells
you to vacate the area,and has to tell you again,
about the,second or third time ,you will be leaving
in the back of a cruiser. They don't wear down or
give up.

You can file as many claims as you can stake.
Twenty acres is the size of a standard claim,2people
can file a single claim of forty acres,and as many
40 acre claims as they want. An association of 8
people can file 160 acres in a single claim,and as
many 160 acre claims they can afford.
A corporation can only file single 20 acre claims,but
as many as they want.When you see several sections
covered by a company,or corporation,they have spent
some serious cash,not to mention the $140.00 per year
fees per 20 acre claim. Ever wonder why the Feds favor
big operators,over hobby prospectors?

As for the touching claim ,or corner thing,it does
have some merit,but is too complex to get into here.
It also has some serious draw backs too.

[Jokenda]

Thank you very much! As for this "Self-Proclaimed" export I just gave him the Ole Good Bye. It became obvious that his major concern was to raise my blood pressure, he knows I am a heart patient. He is an old man that has nothing better than to create disturbances, I am sure you know the type.

Anyway, enough of my "Venting." In order for me to purchase an 80 acre claim I would have to form an association of at least 4 people. If I incorporate with four people I could get 4 - 20 acre claims, I would guess these would have to be stand alone claims and not combined even if they were inter-connected. If I have that right, it makes good sense.

This will mean that I will have to research for another avenue to look for claims to buy or I will have to get my friends to join up. I have plenty of time and it is fun just looking and learning.

[Goldeagle]

Thank you very much! As for this "Self-Proclaimed" export I just gave him the Ole Good Bye. It became obvious that his major concern was to raise my blood pressure, he knows I am a heart patient. He is an old man that has nothing better than to create disturbances, I am sure you know the type.

Anyway, enough of my "Venting." In order for me to purchase an 80 acre claim I would have to form an association of at least 4 people. If I incorporate with four people I could get 4 - 20 acre claims, I would guess these would have to be stand alone claims and not combined even if they were inter-connected. If I have that right, it makes good sense.

This will mean that I will have to research for another avenue to look for claims to buy or I will have to get my friends to join up. I have plenty of time and it is fun just looking and learning.

In order to (stake) a 80 acre claim ,you need 4 people .Forget inc. you are getting to technical Stop Jokenda ,join the G P A ,they have claims out here in AZ. You don't need to buy a claim ,there is still open land to prospect .If you read this forum ,you will find claim buyers that are stuck with some very expensive claims . 5H
K , 10K ,100K for a 20 acre claim ,slow down ,learn first ,here I go again . Most of the claim sellers wll show you were your markers are then you are on your own . Read this forum ,smart miners with good advice , Jokenda there is more money in selling claims then working them .There I go again openning my mouth . Nuf said Don

[Jokenda]

I may have been jumping a little ahead about the claim. In my financial situation, I could not afford to by one if I wanted to. I have decided that I will have to rely on Parks to camp on and then maybe rent somewhere close to places to Pan on.

The attraction of the claim was the yearly maintenance fee being so low as well as the Taxes. A few hundred dollars and a cheap place to stay.

Jokenda

[sawmill]

Jokenda
None of us are trying to bust your bubble,but
the club thing is the best solution for anyone
new to the prospecting hobby. Actually there is
several good clubs,that charge a lot less than
the yearly fees on a claim.

Also you can't live on a claim.You can only camp
14 days at a time. Gilaoro knows a lot more about
the clubs than I do,but I believe some of them
offer reasonable rates for camping.

I also suspect that any one of the clubs have better
claims ,than a newbie could find or buy. Another
thing about the clubs is you don't have to look over
your shoulder,or worry about legal stuff. Also there
is lots of good prospectors there to help with any
questions.

[Gilaoro]

Jokenda,
I,ll add my 2 cents as to my understanding of claims, I have had some, lost some, sold some, and gladly gave away a few!
First of all you should really pay attention to what Sawmill says! It is my opinion that no one should even think about stakeing,buying or anything to do with claims until they have a couple of years experince prospecting.

But to clarifiy a couple of things: You will not just be able to live on a claim, by the time the BLM or Forest Sdvice gets through with making you jump through all the hoops you would have been better off living at the nearest Best Western and comutting! There are many steps to go through before then. Second: Buying a claim (s) is entirely different, you can buy an association claim of say 160 acres as an indivual but you can not stake an ORIGANAL 160 acres as and indivaul. I don't know why, thats just how it is.

You can camp on all most any BLM land , under claim or not, if it has a valid claim on it for minerals then you can't touch the minerals, you can do anything else thats not ileagal, fish, hunt, camp etc. Most BLM land is 14 day limit on camping then you must move as far as that district ranger says! As Sawmill said ,forget about outlasting or resisting the BLM or any other law enforcement officer, all of\ them are cross certified, the game warden can give you a speeding ticket, the BLM ranger will give you a shot of that yellow plastic thingey that carry and you will do the St. Vitus dance for him. You will be much better off from the begining if you make his aquantence and ask for help insted of starting the "Hell No I Won't Go" routine, belive it I have tried both ways!

Club claims: They are subject to the same rules and also the club can set rules for its members and they have filed Plans of operations that members must follow. Please don't be a club 'Natzi" and come over and tell me I am on a club claim and I am not allowed on it unless I am a member. Some people have a short tolerence for fools.

So why are you worring about about staking a claim that you can not build a house on and live on it , if you insist then go the BLM and buy the Official Guide to Staking a Claim , here is a link to the short version,t he book is $10 and gives more detail:


http://www.blm.gov/m...claim_info.html


Another point before I quit: You may not be aware that when you aquire a valid claim you assume all the legal obligations also, preexisting too! If its an old claim and say it had a vertical shaft and some one came inocently by and fell into it guess who is going to get sued??

I come out to BLM land to walk my dog, a legal use and fall into your days digging or trip over your shovel, forget about claims, I am going to own your house!

There's reasons , we are not just a bunch of old fools who don't see all the advantages you do.

BTW: I am under suit for damages for a man who fell from a 125 foot cliff on another claim on to a claim which I was one of the 8 of the association, the estate is suing everyone they can think of except the US Gov!

Interesting also that we were sued for mineral tresspass on a boundry line and we chose not to fight it and gave them a 'Quit Claim Deed" which is the customary insturment used to transfer ownership of a claim, so now THEY are getting sued too because they just proved they where the legal owners of the claims, I love it!

Most if not all the claims you see for sale on ebay are NOT valid claims, check the BLM defination of a valid claim. Chances are that any claim you stake will not be valid unless you have lots of experince. Most people/companys hire some one who has the experince and contacts to do it right the first time, they do not come cheap! Check their ads in the ICMJ.

Good luck and have fun!
Max

[Rod]

Another point before I quit: You may not be aware that when you aquire a valid claim you assume all the legal obligations also, preexisting too! If its an old claim and say it had a vertical shaft and some one came inocently by and fell into it guess who is going to get sued??

I come out to BLM land to walk my dog, a legal use and fall into your days digging or trip over your shovel, forget about claims, I am going to own your house!

Max, I've gone over this with my attorney and he disagrees. Why? Any pre-existing shafts are the land owners, if unpatented that means the Federal Government's responsibility.

Having mineral rights to an area does not automatically make a claim owner liable for the pre existing work of others, it simply means the claimant has mineral rights. However, if the claimant involves pre existing workings in his current efforts then he could be liable.

If you go out walking your dog in the desert of your own volition you are ultimately responsible for your own actions and safety, no one forced you to do that. You choose to accept the risks involved. Plus you would need to prove the workings were indeed the claimant's and not someone else's if you fell in, no claimant can police a claim 24/7 to stop mineral trespassers.

Sure you can sue anyone for anything but that does not mean it will stick in court nor will it mean you will take possession and ownership of someone's house should you win a lawsuit, its just not that easy.

Another way to analogize this is to pretend Bob started a topic on this forum and said Bill is a lying, back stabbing, no good for nothing claim jumper with a story Bill could call "slander / libel" and posted photo-shopped or actual images of Bill supposedly, on his claim.

Bill then tries and gets me to remove it, I say no as I am not a judicial body that can judge this issue, will not take sides and will only remove it under a direct order of a court of law and choose to leave decisions of this nature to courts of competent jurisdiction whose job and burden is to determine such matters. Hope that makes sense

[Jokenda]

Jokenda,
I,ll add my 2 cents as to my understanding of claims, I have had some, lost some, sold some, and gladly gave away a few!
First of all you should really pay attention to what Sawmill says! It is my opinion that no one should even think about stakeing,buying or anything to do with claims until they have a couple of years experince prospecting.

But to clarifiy a couple of things: You will not just be able to live on a claim, by the time the BLM or Forest Sdvice gets through with making you jump through all the hoops you would have been better off living at the nearest Best Western and comutting! There are many steps to go through before then. Second: Buying a claim (s) is entirely different, you can buy an association claim of say 160 acres as an indivual but you can not stake an ORIGANAL 160 acres as and indivaul. I don't know why, thats just how it is.

You can camp on all most any BLM land , under claim or not, if it has a valid claim on it for minerals then you can't touch the minerals, you can do anything else thats not ileagal, fish, hunt, camp etc. Most BLM land is 14 day limit on camping then you must move as far as that district ranger says! As Sawmill said ,forget about outlasting or resisting the BLM or any other law enforcement officer, all of\ them are cross certified, the game warden can give you a speeding ticket, the BLM ranger will give you a shot of that yellow plastic thingey that carry and you will do the St. Vitus dance for him. You will be much better off from the begining if you make his aquantence and ask for help insted of starting the "Hell No I Won't Go" routine, belive it I have tried both ways!

Club claims: They are subject to the same rules and also the club can set rules for its members and they have filed Plans of operations that members must follow. Please don't be a club 'Natzi" and come over and tell me I am on a club claim and I am not allowed on it unless I am a member. Some people have a short tolerence for fools.

So why are you worring about about staking a claim that you can not build a house on and live on it , if you insist then go the BLM and buy the Official Guide to Staking a Claim , here is a link to the short version,t he book is $10 and gives more detail:


http://www.blm.gov/m...claim_info.html


Another point before I quit: You may not be aware that when you aquire a valid claim you assume all the legal obligations also, preexisting too! If its an old claim and say it had a vertical shaft and some one came inocently by and fell into it guess who is going to get sued??

I come out to BLM land to walk my dog, a legal use and fall into your days digging or trip over your shovel, forget about claims, I am going to own your house!

There's reasons , we are not just a bunch of old fools who don't see all the advantages you do.

BTW: I am under suit for damages for a man who fell from a 125 foot cliff on another claim on to a claim which I was one of the 8 of the association, the estate is suing everyone they can think of except the US Gov!

Interesting also that we were sued for mineral tresspass on a boundry line and we chose not to fight it and gave them a 'Quit Claim Deed" which is the customary insturment used to transfer ownership of a claim, so now THEY are getting sued too because they just proved they where the legal owners of the claims, I love it!

Most if not all the claims you see for sale on ebay are NOT valid claims, check the BLM defination of a valid claim. Chances are that any claim you stake will not be valid unless you have lots of experince. Most people/companys hire some one who has the experince and contacts to do it right the first time, they do not come cheap! Check their ads in the ICMJ.

Good luck and have fun!
Max

[Jokenda]

I can't seem to find the reply I just made so I guess I will try again.

I have put any thought about a claim on hold. I can not afford it at this time and I may never undertake it in the future. The one thing that is not on hold are my desires to go to Arizona. Something inside is telling me that Arizona is where I need to be.

I only thought about the "Claim" thing because it appeared to be a cheap way to live, it had very little to do with "Prospecting." I want to be a writer. I started a book over a year ago but I have not written one word since January. So I have some 240 pages that I want to put an end to and get it published. This book is where the "Claim" idea was born. It, the book, is based in the 1800's Wild West. All the characters are animals that have adapted human characteristics and speech. The main character is Morton, a prospector. The book revolves around Morton and his life.

The claim idea was for research more than for gold. Like I said earlier, I thought a claim would be cheaper than renting. Now, Gold is of interest of mine and I want to try my hand at it but camping 365 days a year is not my idea of fun. I have spent 2 years of my life in a 27' Pull-Behind and that was no Pic-nic, I can only imagine what 1 year in a tent would be like.

I have decided that I will take advantage of our Parks until I can get located in the area best to suit my needs. These parks will have to allow panning on site because I have no form of transportation, "I be on Foot!" I have thought about motorizing my mountain bike but I am not sure of the laws there and I am not interested in riding a bicycle to Arizona motorized or not.

You may wonder why I want to totally tear down my life and make such a drastic move. I am bored to death here! I get up in the morning, go to the coffee shop and spend all day there, and then go home to go to bed. I feel like I am slowly dying and I don't like the feeling.

If anyone has a good idea how I can accomplish this, I would greatly appreciate the input!!!

I don't want to be jumping around every 14 days. I am not the type of person that takes on authority and starts bossing others around. I am very easy to get along with and will take a large ammount of abuse. I will, however, respond immediately to the aid of someone else having their rights threatened. I am a big, not so pleasant to look at man and I can be intimidating when weaker ones are being mistreated.

This is me in a "Nut-Shell!"

Jokenda

[Gilaoro]

Rod, They, Lawyers,are supposed to disagree with everything, right! The more they disagree the more they can charge, the really weasely ones that went to that double speak school that a lot of the current bunch of crooks we have installed in Washington did.

The ones that really PO me are the ones that come out of court had hug each other and go out for a drink!

I think Jokenda's case is solved, I was afarid he was going to be the next victim of the Craig;sList/eBay claims seller localy.

Max

[Jokenda]

Hi Gilaoro,

Thanks for the concern, it is nice to know people still look out for others. I am not the type to use eBay but I have used websites to purchase things and had pretty good luck. I use Amazon to buy books and have 100% satisfaction there. But buying eBay is from individuals through an auction and I can see flaws in this system, easy to be had!

I spent $9 the other night with one of the websites and ordered something I am sure I will not receive my money's worth, "Pay Dirt." Ok, it is hard to get gold latent soil here where I live and I want to practice panning. It was only $9 and I figure my money's worth will be the experience of playing with it. You guys got it lucky, if you want to practice panning, all you have to do is walk out to the back yard.

I have not received my dirt yet but I wait with eager anticipation because I just know there will be at least a pound of gold in it. I would guess it will be a very, very little trace of gold.

Will it be enough to actually see?

Jokenda

[Walt (Anchorage)]

Another thing that could affect the size of a claim is if it is on state owned land. For example here in Alaska state claims are either 40 or 160 acres.

[sawmill]

Walt
A hobby prospector can't file a claim or
prospect State land in Arizona. They only deal
with well healed legitimate mining companies,
that can post large bonds,and have geologist's
and the like ,and can furnish credentials.

Rod
Not to beat a dead horse,but there is a few
things to consider about the liability issue.
If you file on a claim that has been turned
back,or is in a location that may have not been
frequented by the BLM,here is some serious suggestions.

If there is any workings ,more so if they are sort
of recent,document all of them,and get the BLM to
do a walk about,before doing any work. If you don't
and something happens ,you can get blamed for any
damages,or liability. Also even if you are not
liable,and someone sues,it can get mighty expensive,
and take years to prove in court that you are not.

Also you may want to ask your lawyer about assumed
liability,by a lessee ,and mitigation. Remember that
a good crooked lawyer can sway a jury,with a pathetic
looking client and a real hard luck story. Sometimes
the law takes a back seat in any court. Then it is all
about appeals and more court.

Just the act of improving access to an area with
known hazards,can make you liable in a lot of cases.
Lets say there is an old washed out trail or road,
that was not used by the public. You fix it so it is
passable. Some kid comes along on an ATV ,sees a trail
and rides into the previously ATV inaccessible area
and falls into an old shaft. Guess who gets to pay.

[Gilaoro]

Walt
A hobby prospector can't file a claim or
prospect State land in Arizona. They only deal
with well healed legitimate mining companies,
that can post large bonds,and have geologist's
and the like ,and can furnish credentials.

Rod
Not to beat a dead horse,but there is a few
things to consider about the liability issue.
If you file on a claim that has been turned
back,or is in a location that may have not been
frequented by the BLM,here is some serious suggestions.

If there is any workings ,more so if they are sort
of recent,document all of them,and get the BLM to
do a walk about,before doing any work. If you don't
and something happens ,you can get blamed for any
damages,or liability. Also even if you are not
liable,and someone sues,it can get mighty expensive,
and take years to prove in court that you are not.

Also you may want to ask your lawyer about assumed
liability,by a lessee ,and mitigation. Remember that
a good crooked lawyer can sway a jury,with a pathetic
looking client and a real hard luck story. Sometimes
the law takes a back seat in any court. Then it is all
about appeals and more court.

Just the act of improving access to an area with
known hazards,can make you liable in a lot of cases.
Lets say there is an old washed out trail or road,
that was not used by the public. You fix it so it is
passable. Some kid comes along on an ATV ,sees a trail
and rides into the previously ATV inaccessible area
and falls into an old shaft. Guess who gets to pay.

Right on Sawmill! Thats the reason that i was happy the deep pockets from SC who have miles of claims along I-10 in Yuma took the claim I was on as an associate in 160 acres, now they are not old broke guys like we were! But they have over 200 Lawyers!

Max

[Rod]

This is one of the few times I disagree with you Sawmill, however, I do agree with photographic/movie documentation, that's the way to go.

When you go out on your ATV up a road you've never been on before you are doing so at your own risk, especially off road. Were you really out of choices? Did someone force you to go up that road or did you do so of your own volition? Could you have walked the road first to see its condition? Is there anything you could have done differently? Do you just assume an offload trail is as well maintained and safe as a residential one? We're all talking hypothetical of course. It's a case by case basis in the courts. And again, it would have to be proved that the mining claimant made the road not some hunter or other, just because a road is there does not automatically fault anyone.

Sure things can get tied up in courts for years, but those are pretty extreme circumstances, it does not always happen and many lawsuits never make it far in court.

Here in AZ we have something called the "Stupid Motorist Law" this is really applicable to floods but the law does not always side with the driver, http://law.justia.co...le28/00910.html You are accountable and responsible for the risks you take.

[Walt (Anchorage)]

Walt
A hobby prospector can't file a claim or
prospect State land in Arizona. They only deal
with well healed legitimate mining companies,
that can post large bonds,and have geologist's
and the like ,and can furnish credentials.

My mistake. I just assume that because in our Alaska constitution the citizens own the natural resources that it's that way everywhere. When I think about it I realize that in most places in this country the politicians and bureaucrats own everything.

[Jokenda]

I'm going to add a little here. The example was using a Kid on a 4-wheeler and that is where the problem begins. Courts have a tendency to not follow the law when a child is involved and this means apeals. The final outcome would be for the Claim owner but at a tremendous cost.

This is where I get confused. If you buy a claim that has an existing mine you do not plan to use, shoildn't you do something to make sure no-one can fall victim to it? Sure that cost money but a little spent today can save much tomorrow. If I understand correctly, if you put a cover over the shaft, you assume some liability should someone fall down the hole. This might convince some to just leave the shaft alone and do nothing to make it safer. Chain link fence is cheap, it is built away from the shaft and if they climb the fence they have taken upon themselves to ignore warnings and you do not assume responcibility for their stupidity.

In Louisiana, we do not have mine shafts. We do, however have old waterwells and they have presented problems in the past. These can be 100 feet deep and filling is the usual option. I would imagine that some mine shafts can be much deeper and harder to get access to, I don't think filling the hole is an option. But even when we fill the well there are still potential dangers such as voids that have resulted. These voids can cave in and if you are lucky, no-one was standing ontop of one when it caved in. The law states, the land owner is responcible for the well as long as he owns the land.

I believe your laws state, a claim owner is not responcible for a mine unless he built it or worked on an existing mine. I may be wrong but that is how it is written in Louisiana. We do have salt mines that have been closed down and mineral rights for oil and the sort play into the same conditions as all states.

One thing for sure, I would not want a claim with a mine on it! I don't like confined spaces!! I would end up being the one to fall in, I don't remember things too well and would walk right over the hole. I do have the unique ability to walk aimlessly around in circles only to wake up and wonder where I am.

Jokenda

[Jokenda]

In responce to Walt's last statement. In Louisiana, the land owner owns the mineral rights only if they retain them and do not sell them. If you buy land that the mineral rights have been sold, you do not receive ownership until the lease runs out.

Also, I like your Govenor! I really like Arizona's Governor!! Your Govenor has some Really Big Balls! I am glad to see some people do not back down to this administration. I am a supporter of your state as are several of my friends, keep it up Arizona!

Sorry about the Political Plug

Jokenda

[Goldeagle]

In order to (stake) a 80 acre claim ,you need 4 people .Forget it. you are getting to technical Stop Jokenda ,join the G P A ,they have claims out here in AZ. You don't need to buy a claim ,there is still open land to prospect .If you read this forum ,you will find claim buyers that are stuck with some very expensive claims . 5H
K , 10K ,100K for a 20 acre claim ,slow down ,learn first ,here I go again . Most of the claim sellers wll show you were your markers are then you are on your own . Read this forum ,smart miners with good advice , Jokenda there is more money in selling claims then working them .There I go again openning my mouth . Nuf said Don

[Jokenda]

Wow, I think I opened a can of worms. I have previously stated that I am not going to buy a claim, at least not for some time. Maybe in a couple of years but not now. Anyway, this was just an old man doing a bit of dreaming. Understand, I have little to do and dream alot. I may never be able to make it out to Arizona in the first place. I live on $965 a month, that leaves very little to spend on luxuries like going panning in Arizona.

But I do apreciate the advice. If I do make it out there, I do plan on utilizing the clubs. I have learned a lot from this group, I sorta feel guilty that I do not pay for the lessons.

Jokenda

[Rod]

Its all good Jokenda, if your claim has a shaft on it, take pictures and leave it alone. As soon as you mess with it by trying to make it safe that could be putting yourself in a position of liability I've been advised. Parents should not be irresponsible with children, if something happens to a kid, like falling into a shaft should not the parent have been more attentive to the situation?

[Jokenda]

You are absolutely right!

Jokenda

[flyingbrass]

Its all good Jokenda, if your claim has a shaft on it, take pictures and leave it alone. As soon as you mess with it by trying to make it safe that could be putting yourself in a position of liability I've been advised.

Yep, if you mess with something, you may be held responsible. By acting, it can be argued that you didn't do enough or maybe even made the hazard you obviously perceived worse. As an example, web forum owners/admins who moderate posts are more exposed liability-wise than forums that make no effort to moderate or censor at all. It's sad and screwed up.

Anyone can sue anyone for anything. All it takes is writing up the papers and paying the fee at court.

Unpatented mining claims only convey the right to extract minerals. How is my right to the minerals on my claim a nexus for liability if some idiot hurts himself on the multi-use land that isn't mine and that I have no control over? Mere ownership of the mineral rights doesn't mean squat.

I can see where liability would attach if someone were to be injured as a result of a hazard that I created on a claim, or anywhere else for that matter. For example, if I were to put some rocks over a rough spot of the Crown King Trail and someone after me rolled down the hill driving over it, an ambulance chaser might see that as an opportunity to go after me. He still wouldn't have much footing in court. Plus, no attorney would bother because I don't have any money (a big part of the picture when they evaluate cases).

It seems to me that working a spot on an unpatented claim under a notice or plan would increase liability if one didn't follow the specifics because doing so could be used to help prove negligence, or perhaps even recklessness. For example, if the plan specifies a working hole is not to exceed 8 feet in length, mine is 12 feet, and a hiker falls in, gets hurt and lawyers up, he would have a better case. It still isn't likely to go very far under that scenario, but he'd have more to stand on.

Patented claims, on the other hand, convey full owership of the land. The owner of patented land "owns" it more thoroughly than most city dwelling folks do the lots our homes are built on. Land that you actually own carries more liability because you have control over it.

Jokenda, you didn't intend the thread to take this tangent, but it's interesting, so thanks.

[Jokenda]

I'm kinda in awe! Usually my threads on other forums just sit there and sit there and sit there, the photo negative of the Energizer Bunny!

Jokenda

[sawmill]

Jokenda
Welcome to the world of prospectors!
Prospectors are a different sort,and usually,have
lots of opinions,about everything. It keeps us from
getting bored,and our brains from rusting.

Rod
The law can all boil down to how you phrase a question,
or how you read a statement.
NOTICE I said previously inaccessible . A lot of old
workings only have one trail or road that would allow
motorized access,if it was passable. Some have been
closed,or left in an unusable condition on purpose. Your
act of creating an access ,is your decision,not the Feds.
They will not be liable for your actions.In effect,you
have created an attractive nuisance,and can be held
liable.

I open and close roads and trails on public land and
have for years. If it is for a federal project,they
assume the liability. But if it is for private or
commercial business,then they require bonds,and a large
public liability policy,that meets their standards.

The key to the road liability thing is public road,
if it is an abandoned ,closed,or not maintained for
public use,and you open it for personal use,you are
liable. If it is a public road then there is no way
you are liable.

For starters,in order to repair,open,or rebuild,
access to a mine or claim,you need federal permission.
That requires bonds,and liability insurance,and gives
you the right to mitigate your liability to the public,
such as gates.

The non liability thing about not using old workings
really only protects you from liability to the Feds,
for damage,or reclamation,and some public liability
up to a point. Once you,use,or alter any part,or open
a closed access,then it is considered part of your
operation.

The government uses what they call passive closures
to limit or stop public access to a hazard area or
discourage entry.This is usually done by letting an
old road or trail ,remain impassible.

The way a court would see it is,if you hadn't of
made the trail passable to an ATV,the kid wouldn't
have rode to the shaft in the first place. If they
walked or rode a horse in and fell in a workings
that was not yours,then that is beyond your control,
and you didn't contribute to their actions.

[Jokenda]

Sounds like the way it is and easy to understand. The fact is, no-one wants anyone to get hurt on their property even without the liability issue. For me there is a moral issue that concerns me. If I were to buy a Claim with a mine one it, I feel I have the Moral obligation to make sure there is "No-Way" anyone could fall pray to it's hazards. Deep down inside I know this is impossible because there is always the fool that has to see what is on the other side, especially if there are improvements to deter their curiosity. These improvements towards safety put the liability on me, this does not sound to Moral but it is how it is.

My point here is that this world is Screwed Up. A lady gets $2,000,000 settlement for her Prize Winning Poodle that she decided to dry off in a microwave. What is the court thinking. Law suits like this happen every day, Why?

Many years ago we had 10 laws to live by and there were no questions about them, you followed them or you paid pentence. Then comes along the lawyer and says, "now wait a minute, this is a little harsh punishment..." An amendment is created, then a new direction, and the law starts to look like a human nervous system and no-one knows whats right or wrong.

So, now comes along the phrase, "the law is left up to interpertation!" This is better said, "He with the most money and the best lawyer gets to interpertate the law!

Morals mean nothing in this world.

Jokenda

[Walt (Anchorage)]

I'm kinda in awe! Usually my threads on other forums just sit there and sit there and sit there, the photo negative of the Energizer Bunny!

Jokenda

I'll bet the number of responses has to do with the time of year. When the weather in Arizona cools enough that the guys can get out to the diggins they likely won't be on their computers as often. I know the participation on the Alaska gold forum drops when the ground unfreezes enough to dig in it during our short summer .