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SURE BEATS DRY PANNING


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#1 sailorinaz

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 07:19 AM

This is something cool I discovered recently. Not sure if it is old hat to everyone else. When out in the dry desert take a gallon bucket that can seal with a lid and fill it 3/4 full with material classified to equal size (very Important) shake the bucket up and down for at least a minute or more and the heavier material will rise to the top. I.e. gold. Scoop off the top layer and save for panning at home or whatever.

Test it out at home with a coffee can. Remember the material must be screened to equal size. Substitute gold with lead sinkers or weights (same size as material)

Sure beats dry panning. smile.gif

(I don't know why the heavier stuff goes to the top)

#2 Reno Chris

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 08:11 AM

QUOTE
I don't know why the heavier stuff goes to the top


Boy - that does seems to go against gravity and all kinds of other physics.

The Jig - a common commercial gold recovery device - operates by rapid shaking up and down, but the heavies go to the bottom.

I wish I had the time to do some experiments on this but I dont.

Chris

#3 sailorinaz

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 09:42 AM

Yes, when you use water you get the opposite effect.

#4 russford

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 10:11 AM

That's interesting and I wouldn't say it's impossible, but I'd like to know more about the "shaking" action you use. The tapping on the side of a gold pan will make gold flakes move uphill. Also, the Mircon Mill Wave table I use has a jig action that moves the gold uphill and foward against the flow of the water. But there's a lot of engineering that went into that table including a "bump" at the end of each stroke.

I know you're talking about dry material, but I've used just the opposite approach with a wet five gallon bucket for years. First I calssify all to at least 1/4". Then, standing in the water about knee deep, fill the bucket about half full with water and swirl the material until it's all fluid. Then by shaking and raising and lowering the bucket at an angle in the water you can actually pan off most of the lighter material pretty fast. It's best to stop when you've got a pan or two of material left and transfer to a pan. Bucket panning has been around forever, but you don't see too many people using it. It's a heck of a lot faster. Just another tip from that ol' fart. biggrin.gif

.........rf

#5 sailorinaz

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 11:11 AM

Russ, I guess is possible that I am forcing the heavier stuff to the top with the way I am shaking the bucket. Not really sure. I am also using material that is very fine. Anyway, the bucket panning thing sounds pretty cool. How far in the water do you submerse the bucket when you are letting the lighter stuff flow off? Do you keep the lip of the bucket submerged at all times? Might be kind of cool to have a bucket with some riffles and a wider opening at the top and smaller base.

#6 Gilaoro

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 11:49 AM

Russ. An old timer showed me the bucket method up north of Medaline Falls ,WA years ago and I still use it when indicated. That was before plastic buckets became widely available. We washed moss from along the edge of the streams, used a little soap and washed it like dirty clothes, skads of fine gold left in the bottom of the bucket but that water was COLD, no wet suits either!

saliorinaz, I am trying your method but my material is had to size all the same, sounds sort of like a JigShot works.
Read all about them here:http://www.goldfieldeng.com/jigshot.html

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#7 russford

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 12:43 PM

"..How far in the water do you submerse the bucket when you are letting the lighter stuff flow off?.."
Just enough to allow the water to rush in and flow back out as you raise the bucket up and allow the material to wash out.

Hi Max,
That looks like an expanded version of their Prospector model. I've always wanted to get my hands on one of those, but their very priceee.
The first thing I thought about when I saw it is: wonder if it would work on removing black sand instead of steel balls? With that magnetic stainless steel drum going around, it may just work. I'll have to look into it. We've got streams around here that a person could make some wages if they ever come up with a machine that would remove BS as you shovel into it.

....... rf

#8 Rod

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 01:40 PM

Interesting, are you sure that the gold is not just from the last place you dug?

The tops of buckets are sometimes the bottom of the dig, bedrock, cracks etc. where gold often is (some gold is not always just on bedrock in some places)

We've dug many buckets of material and transported it over many bumpy miles to find flat pieces of gold near the top as material was panned as it can be harder for flat pieces to fall unless they get turned on edge.

In fact we experimented once by putting 1 gram plus nuggets on the top of 5 gallon buckets of material with lids being moved and the nugs sank down after many miles in the back of a truck on a bumpy ride, not to the bottom but several inches. We wanted to see what the gravity fall rate would be in estimation.

#9 Gilaoro

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 01:57 PM

Russ, There was a trommel in Jackson Gultch in the Cargo Mucho Mts of CA that used round shot jigs like this pic:

The black sand flowed out of the top some how??
They saved the black sand in 55 gallon drums and sold it some where, the operation was not too sucessful due to lack of water, they had to pump it 8 miles from the American Girl mine and were limited to about 4 hours a day running it. I was caretaking some ajoining claims for Robert Sanregret a mining laywer from San Diego and they let me work the bedrock after they where finished scraping for the day, those claims have lots of gold but the bedrock is 80 to 100 feet down. As far as I can tell most of the area is no longer claimed and nuggets are still being found in Jackson Gultch.

That "Prospector" model and a baby backhoe would be the thing if the FS would let you run in in Big Bug CK up there!!!

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#10 Randy Wright

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 03:08 PM

QUOTE (Reno Chris @ Sep 27 2007, 08:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Boy - that does seems to go against gravity and all kinds of other physics.

Chris



I've noticed this too, that when you shake a bucket full of dirt the "heavier" rocks move to the top. What I think is happening is that it's not because they're heavier, but that they are bigger. The little particles of dirt get between the bigger stuff and work their way to the bottom faster, and the larger stuff (heavier) has no place to go but upwards.

#11 Reno Chris

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 03:34 PM

Gilaoro:

Thats a standard jig. Lighter stuff flows ofver the top, heavies collect in the cone. The gold collects in a small compartment at the bottom of the cone, called a hutch. It is normally locked and at the end of the shift cleaned out by the owner or manager.

Yep it needs a good amount of water, but much less than a sluice. Of course there is not much water in the Cargo Muchachos.

Chris

#12 Gilaoro

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 03:59 PM

QUOTE (Randy Wright @ Sep 27 2007, 03:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've noticed this too, that when you shake a bucket full of dirt the "heavier" rocks move to the top. What I think is happening is that it's not because they're heavier, but that they are bigger. The little particles of dirt get between the bigger stuff and work their way to the bottom faster, and the larger stuff (heavier) has no place to go but upwards.


Randy, You have it exactly right as I was trying to point out with my illustration of a 'Shot Jig". The steel balls being bigger and heavier force 99.9% of the "PGMS" to the bottom of the jig, lighter materials flow across the bed to be discarged (Black Sand in most cases).
I don't know if a nugget bigger than the balls would go across the top if it did escape the sluice that is before the Jigs??

There is a lot too processing minerals, thats the reason they hire engineers! I love to watch those shaker tables Russ mentioned. They have them that will seperate several minerals at one time, each one following its own little path across the table. Dave McCracken used to have one at Happy Camp that you could put a quarter in like a pool table and run your cons.
Iv'e got my coffee can ready to try sailorinaz's method tomorrow out in the digs. Lets see.. now if you had a motor----???????
Various_Artists-walkman.gif Rube Goldberg we need you!

#13 Gilaoro

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 04:10 PM

QUOTE (Reno Chris @ Sep 27 2007, 03:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Gilaoro:

Thats a standard jig. Lighter stuff flows ofver the top, heavies collect in the cone. The gold collects in a small compartment at the bottom of the cone, called a hutch. It is normally locked and at the end of the shift cleaned out by the owner or manager.

Yep it needs a good amount of water, but much less than a sluice. Of course there is not much water in the Cargo Muchachos.

Chris


Chris, There is a couple of rock crushers working in the west end of the Gila Mts in the old Dome mining district , one that I have seen has a "Knutzen Bowl" that all the wash water is run through before going to a settling pond. the other looks like a "Jig" from a distance, they don't alow visitors. The bowl has a BIG lock on the "Hutch" No one will talk about the take!!
They crush 1000,s of yards of rock.

#14 pannininthebradshaws

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 06:55 PM

I'll back you up on that Sailor,

Back in my rookie days I did try dry panning several times, and I had the same results.
I would use my super sluice pan, and I would concentrate my material toward the front of the pan with a side to side motion, then I would flip the pan like a chef flips an egg or burger, this would remove the light material. I did notice several times that the heavies and occasionally a few pieces of gold would move to the top, I was always a little confused by this myself, but I never sat down and tried to figure it out, I just thought it had somthin to do with the material being dry. Guess I'll have to play around with it a little more.

Great Post!

J.K.Lyon

#15 Rod

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 07:23 PM

QUOTE
I was always a little confused by this myself, but I never sat down and tried to figure it out, I just thought it had somthin to do with the material being dry


With the laws of physics being what they are John and having dry panned like that myself as the light material leaves the pan the heavies would begin to move and sift downward with the motions made

Somebody make a video 31.gif biggrin.gif

#16 pannininthebradshaws

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 09:20 PM

I'm on it Rod,

At the moment I only have my 1.3 MP camera phone, BUT I should be getting a 6.3 this weekend (borrowed), and I will do the black sand you-tube video, and try to find some dry pan material also! fingers crossed ofcourse cool.gif

#17 frank c

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Posted 28 September 2007 - 03:54 AM

QUOTE (Gilaoro @ Sep 27 2007, 04:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Chris, There is a couple of rock crushers working in the west end of the Gila Mts in the old Dome mining district , one that I have seen has a "Knutzen Bowl" that all the wash water is run through before going to a settling pond. the other looks like a "Jig" from a distance, they don't alow visitors. The bowl has a BIG lock on the "Hutch" No one will talk about the take!!
They crush 1000,s of yards of rock.



KNELSON BOWL, I believe the machine I have is a Knelson bowl,its extremely heavy duty. if anyone is interested in it contact me

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#18 Gilaoro

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Posted 28 September 2007 - 04:38 AM

Frank, That is what you have alright is a Knelson type concentrator. If it is a "Knelson" ( your spelling is right, mine is wrong) it should have a plate with a # like "KC-MD8.5" or similar Yours looks like about a 100 ton per day unit. The ones used here are 1000 tons per day at a 70% solids rate. They make them every size, in Brazil I saw little test units being used that were 7 1/2" on a little trailer using something like a "Gold Screw" to feed them. They were being used for placer testing and they just hauled them around by boat and then pulled them by hand on a trail chopped through the jungle.
Does your have a bottom chamber? And a discharge out the side? Paint it up and put it on eBay.
080402gudl_prv.gif
Max

#19 russford

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Posted 28 September 2007 - 10:53 AM

"..Somebody make a video.."

I've got one. About 10 years ago Phil Hontz from NM got together with an ol' Mex fellow and put out a video of the "ol time method" of drypanning. He also had large custom metal pans made and sold it as a kit. It was one of the most interesting purchases I've ever made. The pan is thin metal about 16" in dia with a large flat bottom and smooth sides. He shows on the video how to temper the pan and polish it for best recovery. The video also show the correct method of drypanning...the angle, size, motion, and the"flip" that John mentioned. I've been working on this technique for years, but it anin't easy. The biggest drawback is that it is very slow, or maybe it's just me. biggrin.gif I'd like to share the video, but I'm sure it's copywrited and I don't have the skills to do that anyway.

....... rf

#20 Dave wiseman

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Posted 28 September 2007 - 03:26 PM

why is it that old glass,pottery shards,arrowheads,nails,rocks and sometimes gold appear on the surface of the ground in the winter time?Some of these objects come to light after a frost or rain,but often just the cold seems to bring them out and surely these objects are heavier than the surrounding soil.What's the affect at work here?.besides displacement of some sort.............Dave

#21 Kelly

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Posted 28 September 2007 - 04:12 PM

QUOTE (russford @ Sep 28 2007, 05:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
"..Somebody make a video.."

I've got one. About 10 years ago Phil Hontz from NM got together with an ol' Mex fellow and put out a video of the "ol time method" of drypanning. He also had large custom metal pans made and sold it as a kit. It was one of the most interesting purchases I've ever made. The pan is thin metal about 16" in dia with a large flat bottom and smooth sides. He shows on the video how to temper the pan and polish it for best recovery. The video also show the correct method of drypanning...the angle, size, motion, and the"flip" that John mentioned. I've been working on this technique for years, but it anin't easy. The biggest drawback is that it is very slow, or maybe it's just me. biggrin.gif I'd like to share the video, but I'm sure it's copywrited and I don't have the skills to do that anyway.

....... rf



Russ,
Phil has a gold forum here in New Mexico. I talk to him now and then.
Here is the link to the forum. http://groups.yahoo....yguid=321523441

#22 sailorinaz

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Posted 28 September 2007 - 09:37 PM

QUOTE (russford @ Sep 28 2007, 10:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
"..Somebody make a video.."

I've got one. About 10 years ago Phil Hontz from NM got together with an ol' Mex fellow and put out a video of the "ol time method" of drypanning. He also had large custom metal pans made and sold it as a kit. It was one of the most interesting purchases I've ever made. The pan is thin metal about 16" in dia with a large flat bottom and smooth sides. He shows on the video how to temper the pan and polish it for best recovery. The video also show the correct method of drypanning...the angle, size, motion, and the"flip" that John mentioned. I've been working on this technique for years, but it anin't easy. The biggest drawback is that it is very slow, or maybe it's just me. biggrin.gif I'd like to share the video, but I'm sure it's copywrited and I don't have the skills to do that anyway.

....... rf


Russ, I am wondering if the large Trinity Bowl might work well for dry panning? I wish the manufacturer would make a video demonstration.

#23 sailorinaz

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Posted 28 September 2007 - 10:14 PM

Gents, I think my expirement is flawed. The reason heavier lead comes to the top is because it is larger. My material is screend to equal size but the lead sinkers are a little larger than the material. I didn't realize that the slight difference in size would make such a difference. I will try to keep my pie hole shut in the future unless I really know what I'm talking about.

They call this the brazil nut effect.


http://physicsworld....icle/news/30472

http://news.bbc.co.u...ech/1655558.stm

The brazil nut effect is the name given to a phenomenon in which the largest particles end up on the surface when a granular material containing a mixture of objects of different sizes is shaken.

In a typical container of mixed nuts, the largest will be brazil nuts.

The phenomenon is also known as the muesli effect since it is seen in packets of breakfast cereal containing particles of different sizes but similar density, such as muesli mix.

It may be counter-intuitive to find that the largest and (presumably) heaviest particles rise to the top, but there are several possible explanations:

Smaller particles can fall into the spaces underneath a larger particle after each shake. Over time, the larger particle rises in the mixture. In other words: The center of mass of the whole system (containing the mixed nuts) in an arbitrary state is not optimal (because of the space close to the brazil nuts); it has the tendency to be higher due to gravity. When the nuts are shaken, gravity will make sure the center of mass of the system moves down and this can only be done by moving the brazil nuts up. Gravity will also make sure they stay up.
When shaken, the particles move in vibration-induced convection flow: individual particles move up through the middle, across the surface, and down the sides. If a large particle is involved, it will be moved up to the top by convection flow. Once at the top, the large particle will stay there because the convection currents are too narrow to sweep it down along the wall.
Including the effects of air in spaces between particles, larger particles may become buoyant or sink.
The effect is of serious interest for some manufacturing operations; once a heterogeneous mixture of granular materials has been produced, it is usually undesirable for the different particle types to segregate. Several factors determine the severity of the Brazil nut effect, including the sizes and densities of the particles, the pressure of any gas between the particles, and the shape of the container. A rectangular box (such as a box of breakfast cereal) or cylinder (such as a can of nuts) works well, while a cone-shaped container results in what is known as the reverse brazil nut effect.

The effect may also be of interest to geophysicists or geologists when studying the effect of vibrations on sand or other loosely contacting materials.




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